Second, then you shouldn't have pushed for the Insurance nerf. Before that, people were using larger (more expensive) hulls with cheaper weapons. The insurance nerf made that expensive.

Personally, I think they have a point. I think some of the behaviour seen on the forums is basically bullying. I'd also bet that you won't get as many replies from miners as you would otherwise because of this. Answering your questions is basically inviting attack.

[quote=Prince Kobol]
One cannot want what he never had. Since the income one makes in highsec can affect the game for the one playing outside of highsec it is quite important the income potential be balanced. If most players feel that the income potential outside of highsec is too low for the risk they need to take then this means one of two things: either the rewards in high are too high or the rewards outside of highsec are too low. But nerfing one or buffing the other will have the opposite effect on the opposite region so my question still stands: is highsec income too low, enough are too high and why?

You can choose to sacrifice tank for yield. That is your choice.

Jorma is claiming that it is impossible to tank a Hulk effectively, despite the fact that he has been proven wrong so many times that his bringing up his claims again is dishonest.

No, the point is that the whole GÇ£onoz, Hulk cannot be protectedGÇ¥ line that miners always trot out as soon as risks in highsec are discussed is fundamentally ill-informed and that the risk is of the miner's own making more than anything.

Hey, being at the top of the mining game takes effort. OH SAY IT ISN'T SO!

Miners can choose how well protected they want to be. If you get into a ship before you're able to fit it to easily perform the duties you want it to do, that's your choice. You might want to fly it in such a way that you can compensate for your lack of fitting skills.

Tippia and I are simply pointing out that a Hulk can be tanked against all reasonably likely ganks.

Sorting out your mining protection fleet is your job. And there are services who do exactly that.

And no, people in Nullsec don't do mining defense fleets because the miners in Null aren't brain dead and can protect themselves (by escaping).

Wow, people arguing over commas.

Mining bores me to tears, BUT with Pyerite skyrocketing am seriously considering mining plag in a .8 sec system.

3 man fleet

Vulture and pilot with max relevant shield leadership skills
Orca seriously tanked and pilot with max mining link skills
Hulk tanked for passive shield resists including rigs and pilot with excellent shield skills(don't need cargo space gonna be right next to Orca)

I doubt anybody will really wanna go to the expense to kill that hulk. They sure won't get any loot.

Removing Local removes the cloakies power.

Have you ever seen me call for nerfing AFK cloakers? I make fun of the people whose pants are too tied up in knots to leave station with a cloaky in system.

If you want no local, go to WH space. Choose the mechanics that you prefer.

So when you hear that "EVE is a PVP game" or "EVE is supposed to be hard" or "Risk of PVP should be everywhere", etc. what do you do about it?

For risk to remain relevant, anyone who undocks must be exposed to it else why even bother going into "riskier areas" at all?

Meant to say the AFK cloakies.

And again, if you don't like Local, EvE already caters to you. But since you're the one screaming to stay on topic, how in the world is this a Nerf Local thread?

LOL u and all u griefin buddies are the redundant ones. Tell me how you can really think that gankin a T1/T2 fitted hulk with a a few Tier 3 BC's can be profitable? You are griefers, plain and simple and as such should be perma banned. There is absolutely no profit in ganking hulks with tier 3 bc's. Therefore it IS griefing.

And don't bother either Porto. You are a Goon disguised as a ugly girl, or in your other self, Mussolini's fatter brother.

EvE has a lot more appeal than ship to ship combat. That is true. However, every activity you do in EvE negatively affects the other players you are competing with negatively. Every Isk/LP/Mineral you harvest makes my Isk/LP/Minerals worth less than they were before. Everything in EvE pits you against other players. Removing the ability for people to harm their competitors doesn't fit with EvE.

If you want to see what happens to EvE when Risk is optional, I invite you to check out SiSi or SW:G

The difference is that in most (if not all) other games, it's optional. Here, it's mandatory.

Miner mining ore in a belt is taking ore out of the belt that another player could mine. That is PvP.

Miner selling minerals on the market affects the price of future minerals on the market. That is PvP.

So, WoW is a PvP game now?

You couldn't do it because, say, you found it kinda relaxing and gave you a chance to do something requiring minimal oversight while you chatted with your friends?

The intentions don't change the effect actions have on other players.

Let's get something clear: PVP means Player versus player. Player versus player means competition.

When I picked up loot faster than another player in Diablo 2, this was PVP. Even if we were all just killing AI monsters.
When I shot more zombies in left 4 dead than my teammate, effectively "stealing his kills", it was PVP as we were competing for a high score.

A PVE-only game is when any possible action you take has absolutely no competitive effect on another player, whether intended or not.

PVP is competition.

Any instanced based MMO is going to be PvE only. Unless of course it has an auction house, then you could always market PvP with people.

No, that's competition as much as ship spinning is GÇö it does not approach the market PvP. And that would only further reinforce the point that you simply can't play EVE without PvP:ingGǪ

Oh, and instances will not affect those that come after because they will get their own instance (that is, after all, the entire point of instancing).

Such asGǪ?

And most of us here still don't care about other MMO's. We're talking about EVE, not some silly fantasy MMO.

What I'm saying is that everything in EVE is PvP.

Whether or not it exists in other games is utterly and completely irrelevant to this fundamental truth. Everything you do in EVE is done in competition with other players. If you get something, someone else is not getting the same thing. This is completely the opposite of an instanced game (indeed, it's part of why instanced games are instanced: so that you can get the same thing without having to beat me to the punch).

Yes, surrounding many other games, there is a meta-game where players compete for bragging rights of various kinds, but being a meta-game, that competition does not actually exist in the game itself. It's players competing over who's doing PvE content GÇ£the bestGÇ¥. This is something vastly different than the content itself being PvP, as is the case in EVE.

The reason the activities have to be seen as PvP in EVE is because they all unavoidably (by design) entail competition over resources GÇö player vs. player. In those other games, the activities do not have this mutually exclusive outcomes: in EVE, if player A has item X, then player B does not (or, in drastic cases, neither of them gets it and X is lost forever). In an instanced game, both A and B can go after X and both can get it at the same time. There is no exclusivity. There might be rarity, but that's a completely different thing (and you have that in EVE as well, on top of the exclusivity and/or scarcity).

So it wasn't a pure PvE game. vOv

It still doesn't change the fact that EVE, unlike pretty much everything out there (except Planetside) is PvP through and through.

Everything. If I grab a Veldspar asteroid, that Veldpar asteroid is not available to you. You cannot have your own instance where that asteroid will be available for your personal harvesting GÇö there are no instances and in the one world we have, I took it. You lose. Try again tomorrow.

In other games, you can have all three, but they will usually tend more towards rarity than actual scarcity by employing randomness as a factor in determining what appear, and exclusivity get thrown out the instant the resource is generated in instances.

You're the one that brought up other games that no one really cares about in a thread that is all about EVE. Using that logic, you're the one that is generalising. You're not giving your arguemtn any credibility by bringing up what happens in other games. I wish you would understand this, but you have shown yourself incapable.

How is it nonsensical?
You have yet to show that the activities in question are not PvP.

[quote=Alaya Carrier]Nope. You have yet to show that the activities in questions are a foundation of EvE as a PvP game.

I'm saying that every activity in EVE is PvP. You are (apparently) arguing that this is not the case, but haven't been able to explain why.

Good job on quickly editing out the part where you said "I've been trying to tell you that every activity in EVE is PvP all along". Great way to completely contradict yourself.

Quoting the post above that post for the record. Please read better.

GǪexcept that in most MMOs, not everything is PvP because they offer content that isn't subject to competition, whereas EVE doesn't offer any such escape from the PvP.

It doesn't have to be player-bound GÇö just showing up in a private instance is enough to break that competition because if someone else wants the same thing, he can go into his private instance and get one of his own. Your running the instance and getting the item does not interfere with or preclude his getting the same item.

GǪaaaaand you've already disqualified yourself from being close to an escape from the PvP. Making your ship is also impossible without competing for resources (specifically production slots), and finally, the L4 missions are very easy to disrupt through various PvP means to ensure that you get nothing. Loot and LP is obviously subject to competition as well, should you do that.

So no, you're pretty darn far away from anything remotely resembling an escape from the PvP. You also kind of have to ask what it would all be for if the intent is to not engage in any PvP activity GÇö it's not like the rewards you manage to eke out will be at all useful.

GǪin the market, not in the acquisition of the resource. Whether or not there is competition over the resource itself depends on whether me getting one precludes you from getting it. If you get the stuff inside an instance so that your and my getting the item are completely disconnected, then there is no competition over it.

GǪor they are accurate descriptions of what's going on.

For instance, they neatly encapsulate a situation where my getting something precludes you from getting it. Whether or not there is an option for you to try to take the competition to a different arena will depend on that whole issue of rarity and scarcity, but the competitive element is still there.

The thing that sets EVE apart is that everything is subject to this kind of competition.

Because you are taking numbers from number crunching programs and not real world applications.

GǪwhich is no different than assuming that the gankers will have all-V skills and full T2 fits and infinitely deep pockets. The skills we're suggesting are so commonplace and so cheap to get to lvl V that it's actually reasonable to think that someone might have them. It's not years of training GÇö it's just the fundamentals that you'll be done with in your first few months.

Miners refusing to organise themselves for increased profit and protection is a their problem, not an issue with game mechanics.

GǪor someone who has done it. It's not hard and it solves a lot of problems.

Now, your suggestions are all fine and well, but then you'll always have people who come up with the Gǣbut they'll bringGǪGǥ argument, which is what we have here. That's why we get into the extremes: to show that the rather silly Gǣbut they'll bringGǪGǥ argument can be answered by the (possibly equally silly) GǣGǪthen you bringGǪGǥ counterargument. It's theory-crafting to answer theory-crafting and to show that everything has a counter.

The whole theorycrafting started when the chant of "They'll just bring another catalyst/thrasher/nado/titan" kept being used in an attempt to spin the Hulk as untankable.